In his recent book, “If We Burn: The Mass Protest Decade and the Missing Revolution,” Vincent Bevins observed that despite a remarkable wave of global protests over issues ranging from transit fares to climate inaction, the decade ending in 2020 concluded with nearly every country back where it started or worse, with reactionary forces and backlash unbending “what once looked like an inevitable arc of change.” 

One missing element in these movements was a focus not just on the desired actions, but on how such decisions are made. After all, most protests are, at their most basic, a cry for a role in decision-making by people who feel disenfranchised and unengaged by their governments.

That’s why I was impressed to learn that creation of a citizens’ assembly is a core demand of Extinction Rebellion (XR) UK, a branch of a global movement to compel government action to prevent social and ecological collapse due to human-made climate change. It has become best known for its disruptive and headline-grabbing tactics, such as spraying fake blood on the Treasury in Westminster or dumping horse manure outside newspaper offices. But the movement is actually very focused on systemic change driven by the people writ large, not just hardcore activists. 

I reached out for a chat with two of the NGOs’ organizers:  Marijn van de Geer and Kathie Conn. Van de Geer is the group’s media coordinator as well as a member of the citizens’ assembly working group and has been with XR since the beginning in 2018. Conn, who joined not too long after, is also a member of the working group, serving as its external liaison. She says her inspiration to get involved was the French documentary Demain (“Tomorrow”), featuring positive responses to the climate crisis. One of the threads in the film was an interview about decision-making by lot, which appealed to her. 

Below is a lightly edited and re-organized transcript of our conversation.

Why and how did Extinction Rebellion decide to include a citizens’ assembly on climate in its demands?

Yes. I think what is important to stress is that even though XR is demanding a citizens’ assembly, it's very likely that no one from our group will ever be on it. So, it isn't something that we would try to co-opt or use it to push our agenda. That is very important for people to realize: This is genuinely us saying we want the people to decide. 

If only climate activists are included in a process like this, we won’t engage people who work on an oil rig or at Heathrow Airport or places like that. And if those voices aren't part of the decision-making process, that would be unfair, and it would fail economically, socially and culturally. Governments and business interests must realize that too.

We’ve seen that recently with the farmers in the Netherlands; decisions are being imposed on them that they weren't part of. The farmers aren't saying they don't care about climate change. Of course they understand there's climate change. They're farmers; they see it every day. But they think no one cares about them. No one is saying there'll be some financial assistance or other types of support during a transition. And that's why you've got these huge farmer protests. I think the same would happen here if we said that everyone who has carbon-intensive jobs are now going to lose them. It would be a disaster and we'd be even further away from solutions.  

There was a similar situation in France when President [Emmanuel] Macron, thinking he was doing a good thing, sparked the Yellow Vest movement by increasing fuel taxes, making driving more expensive – including for people in rural areas who really need a car. It wasn’t like in Paris, where they could hop on a metro or whatever else. Instead, it disenfranchised the people who already found life difficult. They weren't involved in the conversation.

The Yellow Vest protests sparked a big debate and one result was a citizens’ assembly on climate. We were very optimistic, because Macron pledged that he would submit its final proposals to the French Parliament, put them up for a public referendum, or sign them directly into law sans filtre — “without filter.” But that didn’t happen. 

On the other hand, in Poland, the mayor of Gdansk agreed to hold a citizens’ assembly and pledged to action all of the recommendations that attracted over 80% support, which is quite high. And he did that. And now, they hold an assembly if a certain number of people -- I think it’s 5,000 -- ask for one on a specific topic. It’s advertised at the bus stops, etc. so everybody knows it's taking place. So, it has legitimacy in the eyes of the population.

Has anyone in Extinction Rebellion UK worked on a citizens’ assembly before?

Two people from the XR political circle were part of the oversight body in Scotland that worked on a citizens’ assembly on climate. But they thought that the people proposed to present evidence to the assembly were too business-as-usual – in other words, government-thinking. They wanted to include some radical thinkers, and when that request was rejected, they withdrew because they said the participants would not be exposed to the full spectrum of information needed.

Later, four years ago, we were asked to participate in planning a climate assembly in the UK, to discuss how to get to net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. We asked if we could influence the question, or can the assembly members challenge that date? They said no, so we said, in that case, we don't want to work on it.

And, as we just discussed, its equally important to assure that the recommendations produced by an assembly are actually implemented or at least seriously addressed.

Absolutely. People working in this space have agreed that it’s essential that everyone understands from the beginning what a citizens’ assembly is and is not, and what makes it a robust, legitimate process. Then government can be held to account by the people. And that’s where we see the main role for XR.

As it stands, hardly anybody knows when a citizens’ assembly is taking place; they tend to be very contained no matter where they are held. There needs to be huge publicity. 

To build the knowledge base, we're encouraging people to link up outside of XR with other people in the community to have conversations and a deliberative process. Because once people take part in one, they come out quite charged and excited by the whole idea. I want to clarify that these are “community assemblies,” which are not randomly chosen groups of residents like citizens’ assemblies. But it helps to start to get people familiar with what it’s like.

We did our own, mini community assemblies at our three-day event on the lawn of Windsor Castle. I think we had 2,000 participants across the three days.

To what extent do you find that people agree that elections are not enough and an alternative is needed?

A lot of people say, “But we have a democracy. We just voted.” If I’m talking to a voter, I say, “When you vote for an MP, do you think that after the election they will actually represent your needs and concerns?” I mean, you might have admiration for the person you vote for, but the reality is that when they're in power, they can't vote according to their conscience. They have to follow the party line every time. And that isn't representative democracy. What we have is electoral politics, which is different.  But real democracy is about people being involved in decision-making.

As for MPs, many fear it would take away from their role, their power. And obviously, a lot of them have a vested interest in the status quo. They know that a citizens’ assembly would radically change the way things are done. That means that if they are under pressure from the fossil fuel lobby, for example, there's no way they could approve a citizens’ assembly because they know it's almost guaranteed the recommendations would go the other way. In addition, I think the distance between most of the conservative MPs and the public is huge. They also think the public is, to be blunt, ignorant. Politicians don't trust the people and the people don't trust politicians. 

So, to MPs, I say, “We’re not saying to have citizens’ assemblies on everything. There are still things that elected representatives do and decide on. But when an issue is something controversial or something that needs real radical change, and you’re worried that the people won't go with you on this, then a citizens’ assembly will support and help you.” And if they are an MP with a conscience who thinks, “I want to do the best I can,” then this is the way to develop the fairest solution possible. 

It's all about collaboration, essentially. 

What kind of progress have you made with the government so far?

The appetite of the previous, conservative government [for this kind of work] was basically zero. But we’ve had a new government now for about 50 days and I think it's a different story. There are lots of Labour MPs who are very supportive of citizens’ assemblies. 

‍Plus, we have Ed Miliband, secretary of state for energy security and net zero. He is an advocate for citizens’ assemblies. And Martin Wolf, chief economics commentator for the Financial Times, has written about the broken state of our democracy 

We collaborate with the more academic side of the deliberative democracy space and they are a lot more optimistic than we are. Rich Wilson [from the Iswe Foundation] wrote an op-ed for The Guardian recently saying he is convinced that the Labour Party is going to announce a citizens’ assembly in the not-too-distant future. I don't think it'll be about climate, unfortunately, but at least the process is getting attention. 

So, there is hope. But it needs igniting from the bottom up, the top down and on the inside. It needs a lot of work still. One huge barrier is the press. To get coverage, we have to get more and more radical, and as a result, more and more people are being arrested. Roger Hallam was sentenced to five years in prison [for advising organizers of a protest that blocked a major London highway]. And that’s why we are asking for a large media budget to support the citizens’ assembly we’re asking for. 

We want regular, COVID-style updates on the citizens’ assembly: “This is what the people will be discussing…These are the people who will be presenting.” Maybe even a TV program where they invite the presenters to come and speak. Have celebrities talk about it. We want every man and his dog down at the pub to be talking about this. 

What other requirements do you have to assure that the assembly will be successful?

As one example, it must be run by an independent organization, it needs to held for a minimum of 60 hours, and there must be an upfront, public agreement that everyone will be informed what is going to happen with the recommendations. 

Do you have a long-term vision for the role of citizens’ assemblies?

We’re taking it one step at a time. But we are ambitious. We’d like to see the House of Lords abolished and replaced with a citizens’ assembly. Labour is proposing a change in the House of Lords so the members are elected. But we don't want another elected body. It should be a House of randomly selected Citizens that sits alongside the Parliament. 

It takes a long time to effect change like that. Do you find that it’s hard to sustain the energy over months and years?

Yes, it is difficult to sustain. A lot of people are into other causes as well, like Gaza. And then what about Yemen? Sudan? The Congo? We can’t forget about those. We must not lose sight of the poly crises. A citizens’ assembly on climate and ecological justice -- and justice is the critical word -- is just the beginning and intersects with so many other causes that stem from our colonial history. 

We learned a lot of lessons from Occupy. That's why we focus on regenerative cultures in XR, because a lot of people in Occupy burnt out and it just wasn't sustainable. We’re not very good at practicing it yet; at the moment, we're all just exhausted. 

I have to say I do despair sometimes. When I look around and I see what's going down, it's quite hard to be very optimistic about things changing sufficiently. The people in the Global North are too used to their lifestyles, their privileges. They don't mind doing a bit of recycling, but that’s about it. 

But…then I look at what we’ve done so far. It was quite amazing in Windsor, the amount of care shown. The food was unbelievably wonderful. Somebody was always asking, “Do you want some water?” There was sign language interpretation and wheelchairs and transport for people who had mobility difficulties -- a real effort to be inclusive as possible. It moved me to tears. And that’s what keeps me going.